From Downtown to Everytown: City-Rural Ministries Roundtable, With Major Mike Hoeft and Lieutenant Jeremy Thompson

The Salvation Army was born on the streets of London, England, and urban ministry is still central to our calling. But since its founding, the Army has expanded far beyond the urban centres, and in the Canada and Bermuda Territory today, about half of our ministry units are in urban settings, while the other half are in rural areas. 

What are the different strengths and challenges in city and rural ministries? And what can those who are ministering in these different contexts learn from each other? 

Major Mike Hoeft, an area commander in the Prairies and Northern Territories Division, and Lieutenant Jeremy Thompson, a corps officer in downtown Toronto, share their thoughts on these questions and more in this urban-rural ministries roundtable. 

Transcript

Kristin Ostensen  

This is the Salvationist podcast. I’m Kristin Ostensen. The Salvation Army was born on the streets of East London, and many of the urban issues it addressed in the 1860s are still very much a part of our ministry today: addiction, homelessness, human trafficking. But since then, the Army has expanded far beyond the urban centres, and in the Canada and Bermuda Territory today, about half of our ministry units are in urban settings, while the other half are in rural areas. What are the different strengths and challenges in city and rural ministries? And what can those who are ministering in these different contexts learn from each other? This time on the podcast, we have Major Mike Hoeft, who is an area commander in the Prairies and Northern Territories Division, and Lieutenant Jeremy Thompson, who is a corps officer in downtown Toronto. These two have lots of hands-on ministry experience to draw from, and they share their thoughts on these questions and more.

Mike Hoeft

I'm Major Mike Hoeft. I'm one of the area commanders in the Prairies and Northern Territories Division with specific responsibilities for a little bit of Saskatchewan, all of Alberta and the Yukon.

Jeremy Thompson

I'm Jeremy Thompson. I'm a corps officer at Downtown East Community Church in downtown Toronto.

Kristin Ostensen  

Great. Well, welcome to you both. It's so nice to have you here and to have this very, I think, interesting conversation about the Army’s city and rural ministries. So, to start off, let's get to know each other a little bit. Can you each tell me where you're from originally and where you served in your ministry? 

Mike Hoeft 

So I've served in a number of ministries over the years. I'm in my 36th year of officership. I started in northern British Columbia in Terrace, and then moved, after three years, to Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, where I was the corps officer along with my wife. We were there for nine years before moving to Belleville, Ontario, for five, and then we went to a three-point charge in Melfort, Tisdale and Nipawin, Saskatchewan, and from there, I moved into the area commander role, which I've been doing now for 12 years.

Kristin Ostensen  

Wow. OK, and how about you, Jeremy?

Jeremy Thompson  

So, I'm originally a B.C. boy. I grew up in Port Alberni on Vancouver Island. I went to Columbia Bible College in Abbotsford, moved up to Kelowna to work at the corps there as a young man, as a community outreach co-ordinator. And then after that, I worked for nonprofit organizations in Kelowna. And then my wife and I, after we got married, moved into a place in Vernon, B.C. And we, for many years, said no to this calling of officership. And in 2018 we finally said, OK, yes. And so, 2019, entered Training College, and ‘21 were commissioned and ordained, and we are now in downtown Toronto at our first appointment, a whopping four years into officership. We are located in the Harbour Light building, so we are separated by a door, but we rent space from Harbour Light.

Kristin Ostensen  

And thinking about downtown, of course, The Salvation Army was born on the streets of East London. Very downtown experience there. How do you think that being born on the streets has shaped our Salvationist DNA from the beginning?

Jeremy Thompson 

Some of our oldest communities are in the inner cities. As societies grew and technologies and transportation developed, some of the more wealthier people started to move out in more rural areas, and that was true in London in the late 19th century, and that's true today. So, The Salvation Army became a church primarily because the people that The Salvation Army was ministering to—often alcoholics, often the extremely impoverished people—they weren't welcome in other churches, and so this call to minister to these populations has strongly led The Salvation Army in Canada, and around the world, to be a leader in, yes, social services, but also to be a church that should be welcoming of the whosoever, in whatever state they may come. So, yeah, I think we've really developed, born out of that East London, and we still connect to that initial mission, I know, at least in our setting here.

Kristin Ostensen  

Yeah, that makes sense, that that call to serve the whosoever would be our mission, no matter where we go. Of course, the Army serves all over the world in extremely rural locations, as well as the cities. And I wonder, how do you think the Army's mission has adapted to serve in those settings? How did we get from that very urban ministry to rural ministry? And what is unique about the rural ministry here in Canada today?

Mike Hoeft  

Well, you know, I think that very early on, William Booth, in Darkest England and The Way Out, identified a move from urban to rural, and farm colonies were born and developed in various parts of the world, especially Australia and Canada. And so, people were literally immigrated from England to some of these countries where farm colonies were established. Not too many people are aware of the magnitude of The Salvation Army's immigration policies in the late 1800s, early 1900s, but that had a significant impact on The Salvation Army in Canada. And if you look at how we developed across the country, it started in London or Toronto—depends on who you listen to, in terms of history, but in larger centres. But then, as we moved across the country, it was predominantly in small rural centres that The Salvation Army really took root. Many of those have disappeared over the course of time, but many of them are still in existence. The rural expression of The Salvation Army—we are almost half and half in The Salvation Army right now, in terms of rural and urban, in terms of where we minister, and the rural expression is very much alive. It's different than the urban expression, but it has significant impact on its communities and the areas that that it serves in.

Kristin Ostensen  

Can you give an example, maybe, that would help to illustrate what that looks like when the rubber hits the road, as it were?

Mike Hoeft  

In the rural settings, The Salvation Army is the officer, the corps, the community services—they're the only ones. In an urban setting, The Salvation Army has multiple expressions of service across the city. But in the rural context, you are The Salvation Army, and so you tend to establish relationships across the community and are responsive to whatever comes your way. So, you will have all kinds of requests for participation in community events, as well as to be able to serve. And so we see quite a vast array of services offered in a rural context, because it's a response to the very specific need in the community. So rural ministry will look different in an outport in Newfoundland versus a prairie town in Saskatchewan, compared to a northern British Columbia ministry in an Indigenous village. So I think the flexibility and the adaptability for rural is one of its strengths.

Jeremy Thompson  

Yeah, that's a good point, how a major difference of rural versus urban, because in our setting, we've gone so far as to close our food bank, because we're in a highly serviced area, there are multiple other organizations running food banks, and so our main shift has been from these transactional services to transformational services. So we're really leaning into things like employment services and Pathway of Hope and life skills, and trying to walk with less people deeper, in a way that is going to create a deeper impact for people, rather than a small impact for many people. But that has to look different in a rural setting versus an urban setting where we're highly serviced.

Kristin Ostensen  

And of course, you did serve in some smaller communities before you went to training college and came to Toronto. When you think about those diverse experiences, are there things that stand out for you as being unique about city ministry?

Jeremy Thompson  

Sure. I mean, the adjustment for us has, you know, the first year or two was a challenge because I grew up in Port Alberni, lived in Kelowna, lived in Vernon and served in those places where The Salvation Army ran the thrift stores, or sorry, the corps ran the thrift stores, where the corps ran the food banks, where the corps ran everything. And so when we came here, trying to identify what our role was and what our responsibility was, I had this feeling of obligation that we had to be the whole Salvation Army in this community. Meanwhile, we're connected to a treatment centre. There's two men’s shelters within, you know, a few blocks from us. There's the halfway houses, you know, a couple more blocks away. And so, having to learn that, OK, the Army has a large presence in downtown Toronto, and our piece of that puzzle in the corps is that spiritual leadership, really that spiritual element. All of these places have chaplains, so they have that, but to be that community church, right, where all of these places, if they'd like, they can feed into, but also being there for whoever else might be around. But there were certainly a lot of unique things to Toronto that took a little while to adjust to, including, you know, just the sheer busyness of the city, right? You know, coming from Vernon, B.C.—40,000 people, right? There's probably 40,000 people that live within a block from this building, you know, and to think, you know, you go to the Rogers Centre, there's 40,000 people in there—all of Vernon. And so, you know, to deal with the traffic, to deal with the people, to—we take the subway in because there's nowhere for us to park, right? So there was a lot of practical aspects and a lot of challenges that way. As far as city ministry—even our kettle campaign at Christmastime, we do it on foot, right? There's nowhere—to drive down five blocks to pick up a kettle at rush hour takes us far longer than it is to walk it. And people say, Well, isn't that a safety hazard? Well, yeah, but it's the only practical reason. Maybe don't tell the auditors this. But you know, we have to hoof it, you know.

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah.

Jeremy Thompson

Toronto is also the most multicultural city in the world, which is something I didn't know until I moved here. And so, of course, you know, with refugees, with newcomers, language is always a barrier. I remember our first Christmas here, trying to communicate to groups of people was very different, because in a group of people, there's a variety of languages that divide us, right? So you have to figure out how to bring that together, how to communicate well, and, thankfully, we have smartphones that have things like Google Translate that go a long way. You know, most of our congregation in our setting are people who are highly impoverished, right? So, people who have histories of addiction, people who have significant health challenges and, probably most impactful people, who don't have social networks, and I don't mean Facebook and TikTok—I mean actual social networks. They don't have a neighbour they can go and get a cup of sugar from; they don't have an aunt where they can drop their child off for an hour so they can go get groceries. And so, this idea of social poverty is something that we're really starting to look at. And how do we get out of our space, into these community spaces, and build each other up so that the social networks aren't just the reliance on places like The Salvation Army or Yonge Street Mission or the service agencies, but that the support network can be within the condo building or apartment building or what have you.

Kristin Ostensen  

That’s so interesting. 

Jeremy Thompson  

So, with that, I mean, there's a lot of opportunities for ministry in Toronto. It's almost overwhelming the amount of things that we could do. But needing to also create that foundation and build it strongly so that, you know, when Amanda and I leave, the thing doesn't crumble, that is not all reliant on us, but that we can build up staff and build up volunteers and build up the church so that they can be impactful in the community.

Kristin Ostensen  

Yeah, no, that's really interesting. And I'm curious, Major Mike, how some of that might resonate with you, and what you see in the rural sector. Because, of course, there is social poverty. I really like that phrasing, by the way—the idea of social poverty. And there is addiction in small towns, for sure. I've observed that very much firsthand. But I wonder if that looks different, or does it? Does it look different? What's the Army's role, and how do you see that manifesting?

Mike Hoeft 

Yeah, I mean social isolation, social ministry looks a little bit different in the rural settings, because there is a real sense in the rural Canada community, and how people connect with each other and how often they connect with each other—you see familiar faces. You get to know people a little bit differently. That doesn't mean that there's not some isolation in there, that people do continue to be isolated. We live in a very insular society. We shut our doors and we turn on our air conditioning or our heat, and we watch our television. And even the transition of people, you know—in the old-style houses, the porch was on the front of the house so you could watch people walk by. Now, everybody builds in the backyard where you don't see anybody, right? So there's that isolation. But I think in a rural setting, you have much more of a connection. I live in a town of 1,600 people. I see a lot of the same people at the grocery store, the drugstore, the post office, and even if you don't know their names, you start to recognize their faces, and so, you develop a sense of community and connection that goes along with being in a smaller location. What that means for The Salvation Army, of course, is that if you're ministering in a small community—I've said this to cadets before—it's very difficult to know when you're working and when you're not, because you see so many of your congregation and so many of the people that you serve in different contexts throughout the community. You might see them at church on Sunday or in a meal program, but then you see them at the grocery store, you see them walking down the street, you see them at a funeral. You know, you interact on all sorts of different levels. And so we need to be nimble in how we minister to people, recognizing that we're going to see them in a lot of different contexts, and be able to have sometimes a different type of reach into their lives. Because, as I say, you may see them at the food bank, but then you might coach their kid in softball, right? So there's those kind of natural connections.

Kristin Ostensen  

Yeah, that's so interesting. I feel like in the city context, a lot of times we attend churches that might not be that close to our home, so the chances that you're going to run into a fellow congregation member can be pretty low, actually. I don't know if you find that, Jeremy, that the folks who attend your corps tend to be more local, or is it more people kind of coming in?

Jeremy Thompson  

A little bit of both. Most of our people are in the local area. We have a highly transient congregation, so partially because we're tied to Harbour Light. So people are there for three months for treatment, they engage strongly with the church, and then they're gone. You know, everyone promises they're going to stay in touch, and very few do, which is OK. You know, I like to hope that we're planting some seeds with people, that they're moving on to continue, that part of their journey has been fortified by their faith. So one thing that is sort of almost opposite of what Mike was saying is that, in Toronto, we have our little pocket where we serve a certain amount of postal codes, and outside of those postal codes, we're meant to refer to the other ministry units, to the other corps, so that, you know, people aren't “double dipping” and all these things. So it's interesting, when I ride the subway, I run into people who sometimes ask for help, right? Practical help like a bag of groceries or gift cards or something. And so I try and understand where they're living. I try and refer them to the proper resource. But often that's just met with frustration and things like that, because I can't give them what they want now. Now I know I'm probably never going to see this person again, so I don't, you know, you lose that aspect of community, but still, you want to help, but it sometimes becomes a challenge to help, because, you know, I don't know if all the corps in Toronto even have food banks. You know, I try to keep up with it, but everyone shifts and changes, and everyone does their own thing. 

Kristin Ostensen  

Yeah, I can, I could see that it just as you were saying, you know, when you're in a small community, you're kind of all the things to all the people, and when you're in a large city, you're sort of one piece of the puzzle among many. And one expression of our rural ministry that, Mike, you mentioned, that you yourself have done before, but that is circuit ministry. And so, for those who might not know what that particular expression of ministry looks like, can you describe circuit ministry and maybe some of the advantages of that approach?

Mike Hoeft 

Yeah, well, circuit ministry is when you have more than one ministry in different communities. So, generally speaking, in our circuit ministries, we have potentially two, I was responsible for three communities. We do have some that have a few more than that. Some are looking after four communities, and each one may have a different ministry. The one that I was a part of had three congregations, thrift stores, community services, and so you replicate it in each community. The advantage, of course, is that there's a financial advantage, because you're only paying one officer to look after three communities, whereas in the past, it was three sets of officers, and so there's a financial advantage to doing that. The disadvantage, potentially, is that the officer is not at each location full time. They are basically part time in each one, and so people have to step forward and do things. We either hire people to do certain aspects of it, or one of the positive things is that corps members need to step forward and say, Well, I can do what has traditionally been done by the corps officer. So I think circuit ministries are going to be something that we see a little bit more of. They need to be geographically close enough to make it reasonable. But in our day and age, where we're seeing less officers in the work, we will need to join communities together and have an officer oversee the ministry, and they won't be as involved in each community, but they will be able to look after more than one because of being a circuit.

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, no, I mean, all the communities where we have corps, of course, everyone wants the corps to remain and this is a way of doing that, especially, you know, I know Canada's rural population has been shrinking over the years, as is people, especially youth, move to urban areas for opportunities. And I think this might be related to the circuit ministry approach. But can you talk a little bit more about how out migration affects our ministry in rural communities?

Mike Hoeft 

Yeah, just about 10 years ago, the population of Canada was now considered more urban than rural. People would be surprised about that, but it was just in the last decade that we have more people living in urban centres than we do in rural, and that is as a result of out migration, people are going into the cities. We've got a lot of people that come from other countries, and they mostly settle in some of the larger urban centres. And so the population numbers, the teeter-totter, has started to kind of shift a little bit. And what that means for our rural ministries, of course, is a lot of the young people are the ones that are moving to the cities. The older folks, they've got their homes, maybe they're retired, they're well established in the community, they don't want to leave, although some have to because of medical proximity to hospitals and care homes and that kind of thing. But for the most part, it's the young people which now means for our ministries, it's very, very difficult to have things like youth programs in your corps, because young people are moving away. So that has had a tremendous impact, as well as, who are the people that are going to actually help in the ministry? Well, the older folks have said, “I've done my bit. I'm tired. I don't have the energy that I used to have,” and the younger people have moved to the city. So that has a big impact on what ministry we're able to offer in rural settings. And I think we're seeing that really across the country, except in some small pockets where the reverse is true—people are moving back to a rural setting because housing is cheaper, generally considered to be a safer environment to raise children. So there is some of that going on, but for the most part, people are moving to the urban centres. 

Kristin Ostensen 

Yeah, it's quite a contrast—I wonder—to, you know, some of the rural corps where people live in a town their entire life, and you might get as the same soldier on the roll for 50-plus years. And I think cities naturally, you know, people come in, they go to school, they might leave to take a job and kinds of things like that. So it seems like, even for established churches, there would naturally be a bit more ebb and flow in terms of people who attend. One thing that is interesting that we've touched on a little bit—Jeremy, you were saying that there's, you know, half a dozen Salvation Army ministries all within a few blocks of each other. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about how that all works together. What are the opportunities there, and how does the Army sort of function as one mission in that kind of context where we're all right there together?

Jeremy Thompson

Yeah, it's an interesting conversation, and it's been something I've been trying to figure out for the last four years, because there are some natural spaces of collaboration, but there are some definite silos as well. So, it takes a great amount of intention to try and bring things together. And so, for instance, we collaborate all the time with Harbour Light, over usage of space, over community meals, over spiritual care of their clients, but we're also attached to them, right? We've had some intentional dealings with the halfway houses, and we're actually working on a project with them and Toronto Metropolitan University at the moment, so there's been some collaboration there. But, you know, the shelters, which do amazing work, and I know we probably serve a lot of clients that go there—we don't have a strong connection there, and that's been an interest to me. I strongly desire to have that unity because when I go, I sit on some community boards and—well, not boards, but an executive director committee in the community. And sometimes I wonder, I think they think that I have say over all of what The Salvation Army does in downtown Toronto, when really I'm talking from our little pocket here. So, certainly there are areas that I would love to grow in collaboration and in connection and communication, just so we can walk the streets with one voice, right, and we can run this mission of The Salvation Army in a unified fashion.

Kristin Ostensen  

Yeah, no, that that makes sense. You know, one Army, one mission. And we've talked a lot about the differences and the similarities, of course, as well. I'm wondering, what do you think that a city ministry could learn from rural ministries? And then, on the flip side, what do you think rural ministries could learn from city ministries?

Mike Hoeft  

I think that the rural expression of The Salvation Army can learn a few things from the urban and actually partner a little bit more intentionally with some of the urban centres. And I say that because we do know that a lot of the rural young people will eventually move to the city. So how can we collaborate with the city corps to make sure that when they go to the city, when they go to university, when they go to find employment in the city, they don't disappear from the church and The Salvation Army. How can we work a little bit more intentionally together, so that there is a continuity? And can we do that kind of introduction of our young people—and even those who are not quite so young, but are moving—maybe they're seniors, they have to move into the community. How do we have that soft handoff so that they land well? Can we do events together, both from a rural expressions move, going into the city for events, which often happens, but also inviting city to come out to the rural. Maybe there's a worship team that can come out to a smaller community to help with some of the music on occasion. Or there can be a special event out in a smaller community that they see a little bit of the expression. One of the appointments I had was in Belleville, Ontario. And when we were there, we took on Tweed, which was a small community a half an hour away, and we would bring our band out, a 25-piece brass band from Belleville to Tweed, which doubled the size of the congregation, but it also brought a bit of a different expression of life to that congregation. So I think we can learn to work together and collaborate a lot more than we do.

Jeremy Thompson  

Yeah, and I would echo that, Mike. I think connection has to be very intentional, in both settings. But in the city, it's easy for people to get lost, right? We have people who come, and then they disappear for 6, 8, 10 months a year, and it's easy to try and reach out a couple times, and then you don't get a hold of them, and they sort of, kind of run off your list, right? And we don't have those natural opportunities as much as in rural settings to bump into somebody in the grocery store or just run into them and, “Hey, how's it going?” So to stay connected is one of our greatest challenges, when people come through and leave here or disappear. We have people regularly who will come for a year or two, and then they'll disappear for 10, 12, months, and they're either, you know, dealing with health or addiction or something, right? And so absolutely, to stay connected is something that we can learn. Now, saying that, on the flip side, I think—and I don't want this to sound negative in any way—but from my experience, something that I think is a strength in our setting is because of the challenges that people face, people are very authentic here. They're very raw. And so often the conversations we have, we don't have to peel back the masks in order to get to the person. And that's something I love about city life, and that's something that I didn't experience as strongly when I lived in rural settings. You know, I myself wore masks, you know, just to make sure you're looking good because other people are looking good, right? There's kind of an expectation that when you ask, “How are you doing?” you say, “I'm doing great,” you know, or “I'm doing fine.” But when you ask that question here, you get very different responses, you know. And it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. And it's just easier, in that way, to connect to people authentically than to have to work at that deeper relationship. You get there pretty quick, right? Get there pretty quick. 

Kristin Ostensen  

So that leads very nicely into our wrap-up question, which is all things considered, what do you love most about your respective area of ministry, whether that's city ministry for you or rural ministry for Major Mike?

Mike Hoeft  

What we like most is the connection, the sense of place and belonging that is a little bit more visible in a rural setting, in my mind—the connection points with people over the course of a week or a month. And so I think that's what I like the most about being in a rural setting compared to an urban setting, where you can kind of get lost in the crowd. When we do, when I go to Costco, just 45 minutes away, I will very seldom meet somebody that I know from Saskatoon. I'm much more inclined to recognize somebody from Rosthern, my town, that's who I see, or I see people from Melfort or Tisdale or Nipawin or Prince Albert, that I used to know years ago. And those are the people that I will run into. And so I enjoy that. I like being known. I like knowing people. And so that's what I really appreciate about the rural setting.

Kristin Ostensen  

How about you, Jeremy?

Jeremy Thompson  

Yeah, I've really come to appreciate the city and the inner city, largely in part from that rawness that I just spoke about, that natural peeling back of masks that sometimes become artificial in our relationships, are pretty easy to get through in our location. In our specific corps, I love how we gather for Sunday service. We follow, you know, a typical sort of outline, but we sit in a circle. You know, often people talk throughout, so there's questions. Just a couple Sundays ago, when we did our prayer time—we have a significant prayer time in our service—one guy asked, “How do I pray?” And what a beautiful, authentic question, right? A guy who is new to church, when we talk about prayer, he doesn't have a clue, and so he asked. And so it leads to beautiful time to not guess what people don't know, but to know what they don't know, and to be able to talk about that as we lead into prayer. And likewise, through our messages, often questions come up, and it helps us know, as ministry unit leads, as the corps officers, as pastors, to know where our people are at. How is this Scripture that we're talking about, how is this Jesus that we're talking about, speaking to that person? And it allows us to respond in meaningful ways. And so I think just that raw—you know, people who come to our corps, they're people who already know that they're broken, and they're looking to get better, right? They're looking for a better way. What they were doing wasn't working, and so they turned to Jesus. And it's just beautiful to see some of those transformations that come out of that.

Kristin Ostensen  

Well, thank you so much. And yeah, what a wonderful example. That is such a beautiful example. I feel like I have gained even greater appreciation for both our city and rural ministries. And so, I just want to thank both of you for coming on the podcast and sharing your insights with us.

Jeremy Thompson  

Yeah, thank you for having us. 

Mike Hoeft

Thank you.

Kristin Ostensen  

Thanks for joining us for another season of the Salvationist podcast. This is our last episode of the year, but we’ll be back in January. In the meantime, catch up on past episodes at Salvationist.ca/podcast.