Salvationist Podcast
News and stories from The Salvation Army Canada and Bermuda Territory.
Salvationist Podcast
Keeping Kids Safe Online: Nancy Turley
Today's kids and teens have never known a world without the internet or smartphones. And while there are many benefits to online life, there are also risks.
Kids who spend more time on screens are more likely to show symptoms of anxiety and depression. And a recent study of Ontario teens found that one in five had experienced cyberbullying.
So, there are many reasons for parents, youth leaders and pastors to be concerned. But there’s a lot we can do to keep kids safe online.
On this episode, Nancy Turley, territorial abuse advisor for Canada and Bermuda, walks us through some of the dangers young people may face online, and shares practical suggestions and steps parents can take to stop problems before they start.
Further Reading and Resources:
Online Child Sexual Exploitation (Public Safety Canada)
Digital Safety Resources (Be Internet Awesome)
The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt
Kristin Ostensen
This is the Salvationist podcast. I’m Kristin Ostensen. Did you know that the average person spends 6 hours and 40 minutes per day on screens that are connected to the internet? Maybe that’s not surprising, considering most of us carry a smartphone in our pocket, pretty much 24/7. This brave new world of constant connection includes young people as well. And while there are benefits to online life, there are also risks. Kids who spend more time on screens are more likely to show symptoms of anxiety and depression. And a recent study of Ontario teens found that one in five had experienced cyberbullying. So, there are many reasons for parents, youth leaders and pastors to be concerned. But there’s a lot we can do to keep kids safe online. So, today we welcome Nancy Turley to the podcast. She’s the territorial abuse advisor for Canada and Bermuda, and she walks us through some of the dangers young people may face online. But she also shares plenty of practical suggestions and steps parents can take to stop problems before they start.
Hi Nancy, and welcome to the Salvationist podcast.
Nancy Turley
Good morning. How are you, Kristin?
Kristin Ostensen
I'm well, thank you. It’s so good to have you be here and to talk about this very important topic.
Nancy Turley
I'm very happy to be able to share some thoughts and insights into what is a very important topic for all of us, when we think about our young people.
Kristin Ostensen
Absolutely. So just to start us off, I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about yourself and your role with The Salvation Army.
Nancy Turley
Very happy to. I've been married for 38 years. I have three adult children and two little grandsons, who I absolutely adore. I am a lifelong Salvationist—I'm actually a fourth-generation Salvationist—and I am in my 28th year as the territorial abuse advisor, dealing with all the issues of abuse and, in that, under that umbrella, it captures online issues, elder abuse; it looks at how people treat one another. And so, I do a lot of teaching and training, but I also do investigations when it comes to addressing some of these issues.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, very important role. And perhaps one that some in our territory might not even know exists.
Nancy Turley
I think that's very true. But when you need it, it's a good thing to know what's there.
Kristin Ostensen
Oh, for sure, for sure. So, part of what sparked the idea for this episode is that the Australian Government recently moved to ban social media for kids under 16. I'm wondering: why might a government want to ban social media for young people? What are some of the key safety issues you're seeing for kids online?
Nancy Turley
It's an effort to protect from harm, because we know that social media exposes children and young people to a range of potential risks, including cyberbullying, harmful content and online predators. And I think the hope is that, by restricting access, it will help to safeguard their psychological and emotional well-being as well. I think they're looking at promoting healthy development. You know, some studies suggest that excessive social media can interfere with healthy brain development, sleep and academic performance, and the proposed law supports a safer development environment. I think they're also trying to address privacy concerns, because social media collects vast amounts of personal data from users and children may not fully understand how their data is collected, used and monetized.
Kristin Ostensen
Very true.
Nancy Turley
So, banning access for younger users may help to mitigate privacy violations and the exploitation of personal data by large technology companies. I think it's also an effort to support parents, and by restricting access, it helps to empower parents and guardians to better guide their children in their online activities, ensuring that they engage with technology in a supervised manner. So, I think that's the intent behind the legislation that they've put forward.
Kristin Ostensen
Well, good intentions aside, what do you actually think of a ban like this one? Are they a good idea? Do they actually work?
Nancy Turley
I think the intention is a good thing. But these situations are never black and white. It will not be easy to implement. And the onus—the way I've read the legislation, the onus is actually on the companies to ensure that children are not involved on their websites. So, I think it'll be difficult to monitor. You know, I think it's clear that we need to better protect children and young people while they're online, but they may need to look at some other alternative responses—you know, maybe placing the legal duty of care on social media companies, and that would require them to take responsible steps to make their products safe for children and young people. I think we also need to help children better navigate, because the internet is with us. Social media is with us. And I think that this blanket ban will not prepare children to be able to navigate this world and think critically about what they see online and how they engage with social media. So, I think I appreciate the intent, but I think the realistic implications and practicalities of implementation are just not there, and it will be interesting. There are many legal challenges to this legislation right now, so we will see where it lands by the end of 2025 when they're supposed to have it underway.
Kristin Ostensen
Good points. Very good points. Now that legislation, of course, is just targeting social media. But in addition to some of the social media challenges, what are some other dangers kids might face online that parents should be aware of, particularly as it relates to mental health and bullying?
Nancy Turley
Yeah, well, cyberbullying online is rampant, and it's, you know, with it comes rude behaviour; with it comes threats, intimidation. And it happens peer to peer, child to child, and you know, so that's very concerning. Inappropriate content—so, just websites that will take children to, you know, that they may think they're putting in Blues Clues, but they'll purposely misspell it so that the child will end up at a pornographic website. So, children can be exposed to harmful content, and you know, including child sexual abuse images, content promoting terrorism and content promoting eating disorders. So, inappropriate content, I think, is another one, aside from social media. Then you have online predators, and they target children, and they're very, very smart about how to do this. They are very sly. They're very underhanded. And so, children need to realize that they need to be very careful about who they friend online. You know, the whole idea of having a “friend” online is a misnomer, because we're dealing with people we don't even really know, but that's how online predators sink their jaws into our young people. I think identity theft is a very real concern, and so children's personal information can be stolen, or their parents, if they're using a family computer—a lot of these people are very able to access information. You know, they'll ask the child to click on a certain link, and next thing we know, the parents, their financial information, their identities, are at risk. I think we're seeing that there are social and behavioural problems that technology can—social and behaviour—can create social and behavioural problems because they aren't having healthy relationships outside of an online world. So, they're not communicating very well. And you know, they are not good in social situations when technology is not involved. And then poor mental health—research is showing that adolescents who spend more than three hours a day on social media face double the risk of experiencing poor mental health. And so these are all genuine concerns, not just in social media, but just in that online world. And a lot of this can happen through gaming. It can happen through, you know, just accessing websites that are not good for young people, you know. So, I think that there are what I would call the “3 Cs” of online safety, you know, and it's important that we understand these so that we can identify what the potential risks are, and we need to look at, you know. Content is one of them, and I've kind of alluded to that. So it might be words, or it could be images or videos, and so children don't understand the dangers of these things. And it will include pornography, or fake news, racism, misogyny, self-harm, suicide, antisemitism, radicalization and extremism. And those are all areas that we've seen through content. The contact—you know, some of the peer to peer pressure, or seeing inappropriate, commercial advertising. Sometimes adults pose as children or young adults with the intention of grooming, and that leads to relationships that children don't really understand, and they think they're meeting a friend or a really cute guy, and next thing we know they've been involved in other purposes by the individual. But conduct—you know, it means the way people behave online. And so, it's been sort of a phenomenon to me, to watch how our guard is down, the things that we would never have said in person now people very freely will say online, you know. And so that's where we see a lot of the bullying. We see a lot of just the name calling and unkindness and all of these things. It's become a norm in the online world. And then the commerce piece—the financial scams that are occurring. And again, often they're targeting the parents, using the children to access, but children and young people can be exposed to these risks as well, thinking that, you know, they're going to help their family pay for something, and next thing they know, they've been, you know, sucked into a world that's very dangerous for them.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, well, thank you for all of those examples. It's almost a bit overwhelming when you when you hear it listed because, wow—there's so many ways that children can be targeted and can experience these negative issues.
Nancy Turley
Yeah, absolutely. And I would just say, adults are targeted in the same way, but we recognize that children are that much more vulnerable because they don't have the life experience. They don't have a broader understanding of what's really going on in each of these areas.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. So, if a child or a teen is experiencing some of these negative things, what are some signs that parents and trusted adults such as corps officers or youth leaders can watch out for?
Nancy Turley
Well, I mean, there are many signs and symptoms, if I could put it that way. You know, generally you'll see depression, anxiety, body image issues, eating disorders, or poor sleep quality. But they could also be indicative of other things, rather than just the online world. But I think there are some clear warning signs that your child may be unsafe on social media, and parents need to know the risks and the warning signs so that they can get the help or find the resources that they need. So, you know, that change in mood. I think when children and teens who are being bullied or having upsetting experiences online, they will tend to seem more sad or moody, or maybe even irritable than usual. So, we see these big shifts in their mood combined with extensive use of social media. It could be a warning sign that social media is a problem. Appearing distressed after spending time online—if your child seems upset or angry after spending time on social media, this could mean that they're having a problematic experience online. So, we need to be aware that children and teens might try to hide how they feel, or they may say, “I'm fine,” even when they seem upset. Secretive behaviour is always a red flag for me. If a child is secretive about what they're doing online, it could be a warning sign of danger, and it might mean an adult is trying to build an inappropriate relationship with them, as we see with sexual grooming. And you know, I have always been a proponent to say secrets are never good. And you know, as adults, as parents, we want to remind our children that you are not to keep secrets, especially with people that you don't know, or maybe even more so with people you do know. But secrets are always a sign that there's something untoward happening. Another sign would be isolation from friends and family. You know, generally, teens who are unsafe on social media will start pulling away from the familiar, from their family, from their friends. They might even avoid loved ones in order to hide these inappropriate online interaction actions, or predators might encourage teens to stay away from their friends and their family because, “They don't really care about you. I care about you.” That's kind of the way a predator might approach some of these things. Children may refuse to go to school, and children and teens who don't want to go to school might be getting bullied by their peers. One survey found that nearly one in two teens had experienced cyberbullying such as name calling or false rumors, and kids who are being bullied on social media might want to avoid school, to escape their bullies, because often their bullies are from school. There might be a decrease in school performance, lower interest in school, dropping grades—they can also signal unsafe online interactions. And again, you know, that will go along with the depression and anxiety, which can also hurt school performance. Refusing to talk about their online interactions. You know, some experts recommend parents talk openly with their kids about their social media use, and if a child avoids these talks, it could be a sign that they're involved in unsafe behaviour online. So, I would especially say that any one of those categories, in and of itself, may not necessarily say a child is being bullied online, but if you have several of those, then as parents or guardians or leaders, teachers, it's worth looking into it a little bit further to see what we can do to help children with their own activities.
Kristin Ostensen
Well, that's very helpful, and of course, we're all hoping that it doesn't get to that point where there's actually something going wrong. So, in terms of sort of being proactive and stopping the problems before they start, how can parents and trusted adults be proactive in protecting their kids from some of these dangers?
Nancy Turley
I think we need to be setting boundaries and expectations for the sites and apps that they can use. So, we're not just talking about on the computer, but it may be on their phones. Monitoring your child's social media use as a parent or guardian, being aware of the types of websites that they're visiting and the games that they're playing online. You know, we think a game is a harmless thing, but some of the games that are available are very, very dark and they take children into a world that I think is very dangerous, emotionally and psychologically. Encouraging children to leave their devices outside the bedroom at night, you know. Having regular screen-free family times. Teaching our children not to download anything without permission, or not to click on suspicious links and for them not to share sensitive information. So, I think, there are two aspects to this. I think there are some guidelines that we should be sharing with our children for safe online use, and I think there are guidelines for parental supervision. So, I'd like to just sort of give an overview of each of those.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, sure.
Nancy Turley
You know for basic guidelines to share with your children is that they need to follow family rules and those set out by the internet service provider. I think we need to encourage our children to never post or trade personal pictures, because we know that so much happens with people taking an image of you and imposing it into a very sexualized view of something, and once they're out there, they're out there—even if it's not you, but your face is there. You know, it's very difficult for children to overcome that. Helping our children to understand that they must never reveal personal information, such as their address, phone number, school or location, using only a screen name and not sharing passwords other than with your parents. Never agree to get together in person with anyone that they meet online without parental approval or supervision. Never respond to a threatening email message, post or text, and that they would share that with their parents, and that they would always tell a parent or trusted adult about any communication or conversation that was scary or hurtful. So, I think the key, if I were to put an overall umbrella to describe that: it is about communication—you know, that you keep those lines of communication open when it comes to the online world. Yeah. Guidelines for parental supervision—I think parents and trusted leaders need to spend online time with their child to teach them appropriate online behaviour. Keeping the computer in a common area where you can watch and monitor its use, not in individual bedrooms. And we need to be monitoring any time spent on smartphones and tablets, and that's where the challenges come, because it used to be we all had one computer for the family, and it was in the living room. Now everybody has their own phone, so parents need to be aware of what's going on there. You know you can bookmark kids’ favourite sites for easy access so they know how to, they don't end up going down rabbit holes towards looking for a site, when they end up on—they might even just stumble on some very inappropriate sites. As parents, you need to be checking your credit card and your phone bills for unfamiliar account charges and find out what, if any, online protection is offered by your child's school or after-school centre, the homes of their friends, or any place where kids could use a computer without your supervision. And as parents, we need to be taking our child seriously if they report any uncomfortable online exchange. I mean, these are just an overview, but I think it's being actively engaged with your children in their online activity long before it becomes a problem. You mentioned that, you know, we want to be gatekeepers. We want to be proactive, so we're not reactive when something happens; that we are very clear as to what is available to help our children in these situations.
Kristin Ostensen
Well, and then, of course, there's always new things popping up, too. And so, I think having that communication open beforehand hopefully would prevent some of those things from happening, you know, that we're not even prepared for, because we don't even know they exist yet.
Nancy Turley
Absolutely. And I think the other part of this is, as parents, we can't just say, well, the school, you know, we'll just let the school deal with this. Yeah, we have to be active. We have to know what's going on in the online world, no matter—you know, as parents, we cannot just think what we knew five or 10 years ago is enough to protect our children, because this is a very fluid industry, and they are always looking for greater ways, easier ways to access our kids. And a lot of these sites, they are targeting our children. You know, they want our children to get hooked on pornography. They want our children to be vulnerable by sharing information and data that really is private. And so, we have to be actively engaged as parents, as grandparents, as leaders, as officers, to be able to help one another, protect our children from the insidiousness of the online world.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, and that is a good point, right? Obviously, parents have a strong role in the home, but in our church communities, our corps communities, I'm wondering if officers and our youth leaders could also play a role in this. What do you think?
Nancy Turley
Oh, absolutely. I think they have to, you know. I think, you know, if we believe it takes a village, we are part of that village, to be actively aware of what we need to be doing to protect our children. So we speak out and say, “You know what? I don't think that's a good place for,” or, “You’re always online. You're at youth group and you've got to put your phone away,” and those kind of things. But I also think officers and youth leaders can help provide workshops and learning opportunities and resources for parents. There are wonderful resources available for parents. I think parents need to know that there are websites that help you monitor your child's online life. You know, there's some that will send a parent an email to let you know what websites your child has accessed, and again, it's not—I mean, some people might argue free speech or whatever. But you know, I want to know what my 12-year-old is involved with, and I have a right to know that if I want to protect them. So, I think we need to be aware of what is available and keep talking about these issues, and that way we can help parents to navigate the challenges that are there. It's really keeping that conversation going, and it isn't just a private family matter. It's a matter that impacts all of us, because we're seeing the behaviours, we're seeing the impact of social media on our young people. Right? And not just social media, but the online world. And so, what are we going to do to combat the negativity, the damage, the self-esteem issues that have come about because of that?
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, and you mentioned some resources, and I would love to add some of those to the show notes. So, for those who are listening, we will add some links and things for you as well. So please check that out. Now, the sort of flip side of that, of course, you know, we want to keep our kids safe. You've talked about putting boundaries and things like that on online activity. But there is that concern that if parents limit their kids’ activities online, the kids might be left out and will miss opportunities for positive social interactions. So, I'm wondering what you think in terms of: how do we find the balance between letting kids be online and then versus shutting it all down, like the Australian government is trying to do?
Nancy Turley
Well, I think the word is balance. You know, if you do some of the things we've talked about, you know—educating yourself and spending time with your child online, and having reasonable rules and limits—you know, by approaching it that from that perspective, we're not saying, “No online life till you're 18.” We are saying, “You can be online, but there are boundaries, there are expectations that we have as your as your parents.” But that's the importance of also having our young people involved in other things, like sports and youth activities at our churches, and, you know—so that they realize there's a world beyond the online world. I know of situations where young people are always online, you know—if they're home, they're playing a game—and so that finding other activities, whether it's music, sports clubs at school—encouraging that as part of their upbringing as well, so that we don't, just aren't using the online life as a pacifier or an electronic babysitter. But we are finding we're giving our children other opportunities as well. So I think the key is—I, personally, I don't think it's reasonable or even possible to shut out the online world for our young people. But there are things that we can do to guide our children and so that they are not going into private chat rooms, especially when you're not present. They're not spending every waking hour online. And it's interesting, because we—I know, growing up, and when my children were growing up, we'd say, “Don't talk to strangers,” and we need to be saying that when they're online—it's even more important online, they're not talking to strangers. So, I think it is just finding those things that we can do to put those parameters in place. And, you know, helping our children recognize that that's our expectation as parents or caregivers—that if you want to be online, then you have to abide by these things. As far as downloading information, uploading pictures without permission—and again, there are resources to help monitor those things. When it comes to children, I would also, as part of this, I think parents need to review the histories or the logs of their computer to see where our kids have been. And if you see something that's alarming or concerning, use that as an opportunity to sit down and talk to them about the dangers. When, you know, when you see things that are causing you concern, it's not time to, you know, go crazy and flip out on your children, but use it as a teaching, teachable moment. I know some parents have developed a contract with their children about their internet use, and it basically is a pledge from your child to follow certain rules on the internet so that they can develop trust. And if they can learn those healthy guidelines, if they can adapt those into their computer usage, then they have a better chance as they grow older, to avoid some of the pitfalls of the online world.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, in a way, it's almost like we're paying catch-up, because the online world arrived and now we're kind of going, “Oh, no, wait, that's not good.”
Nancy Turley
No, that's exactly true. And I think, you know, the people behind a lot of these websites, they do not care about our children. We have to realize that they have an ulterior motive, and they are going, they're trying to capture the hearts and minds of our kids. So, we need to be providing alternatives. We need to be aware of what's going on and recognize some of these dangers. And that's why every year, we have new sites, whether it be TikTok or X or Snapchat or whatever. Our young people are always, you know, at risk because the online world is finding new ways to get into the hearts and lives of our kids. And so again, by us being aware and having these conversations, it's a starting point. But we cannot think that what we're talking about today will be enough for next year, because something new will come up, and we need to understand what it is and what the purpose is and how it's unfolding.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, completely agree. And thank you so much for taking the time to walk through some of this with us. There are certainly some challenges, but I think there's also some hope there, and some really practical advice that parents can take. And as we noted, we'll put some resources in the show notes, so I hope that's really helpful for our listeners as well. So, thanks again, Nancy for joining us. Appreciate all you do.
Nancy Turley
You’re very welcome. I would say, if anyone has any further questions, I'm very happy and open to anyone reaching out for clarification, if that would be helpful. And I will definitely provide you with some extra notes and resources for parents and caregivers.
Kristin Ostensen
Wonderful. Thank you.
Nancy Turley
You're very welcome. Take care.
Kristin Ostensen
Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Salvationist podcast. Be sure to check out the show notes for more resources on this topic. For more episodes of the podcast, visit Salvationist.ca/podcast.