Overcoming Addiction and Helping Others: A Salvationist's Recovery Journey

As executive director of the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre in Winnipeg, Greg Kyllo leads by example. He has experienced addiction first-hand, having struggled with alcoholism for many years. Now sober for 19 years and a member of The Salvation Army's Heritage Park Temple, Greg shares his personal journey, his professional insights into sobriety and an encouraging message for those who might be struggling. "Recovery isn't just possible," says Greg. "It's probable."

Listen to our previous episode on alcohol and society.

Learn more about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre.

Transcript

Kristin Ostensen

This is the Salvationist podcast. I’m Kristin Ostensen. Last time on the podcast, we looked at the impact of alcohol on society, and the reasons behind The Salvation Army’s sober stance. (And if you haven’t had a chance to listen to that episode, be sure to check it out—it’s a good one!) As a follow-up, we wanted to explore the real-life experience of a Salvationist who has been through alcoholism and recovery. And today, we welcome Greg Kyllo to share his journey. Greg, who attends Heritage Park Temple in Winnipeg, has not only been through recovery himself; he now helps others get sober through his work as the executive director of the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre. He shares his personal and professional insights into sobriety, and offers a hopeful message to those who might be struggling.

Hi Greg, and welcome to the Salvationist podcast. 

Greg Kyllo

Great to be with you, Kristin.

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, so delighted to have you on here. So, to start us off, can you just tell me a little bit about yourself and your life growing up?

Greg Kyllo

Sure. Well, I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, the heart of Canada, here in the centre, and it's where I am now again, living here back home in Winnipeg. And yeah, grew up in a fairly typical middle-class family, although behind the scenes, we were sort of hiding the struggles of my mother and her alcoholism and that. And so, I think, back in the 80s, as I was growing up, and back when there was less, I think, understanding of what substance-use disorder and, in particular, alcohol-use disorder, was really about, and that addiction, there weren't a lot of supports. And, you know, my family, my brother—my younger brother, who's two years younger than me—we were really close, and we kind of grew up together through that. My dad did the best that he could, and he was working for the Hudson Bay Company and climbing that corporate ladder and provided us a really wonderful life and, you know, kind of all the things that we needed growing up. But it definitely was a struggle with my mom and the challenges she was having with her drinking. And so actually they separated when I was 15, and that was hard for my brother and I, and my dad sort of took us under with him, and my mom kind of continued on with her drinking, unfortunately. And, yeah, it was really hard, and we really didn't have a mother for many years because of that. So, yeah, that was a hard part. But when you're growing up, sometimes you don't know anything different. And that's the childhood that we had, and we coped with it, I think, quite well. But, yeah, it was certainly rough experiencing that addiction throughout my early years.

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, I'm sure. And given that experience, can you talk a bit about how you ended up experiencing addiction yourself?

Greg Kyllo

Yeah, well, the irony is I hated alcohol growing up and wanted nothing to do with it, and never had a single drop till I got into university and was in business school and started to socialize and then going to commerce socials at the time, which were these big—they threw the best parties at the University of Manitoba back in the day. And that's when I first started to drink, really, because of social pressure. Actually didn't want to, but did, and very quickly it became a part of my, you know, sort of what I thought at the time was sort of that normal behaviour of, Boy, this was a fun experience. And as soon as I started, I fell in love with it, and it very quickly became something that I did regularly, and then actually progressed into becoming problematic within about 10 years.

Kristin Ostensen

So, once it became problematic, how did you recognize that that was happening? And was there a turning point where you realized that you really needed to get help?

Greg Kyllo

Well, it's a really good question, because I think it can be different for everyone, depending on your circumstances and your own journey. And for me, I always had it in my mind that, you know, my mom was an alcoholic, and that I was different than that. And so, there can be so much denial going on with someone who's struggling with addiction, and in particular, alcoholism, because it's so, you know, so normalized in our society. I mean, drinking is so much a part of so many people's upbringings and in our culture. And, you know, just going out for a meal and drinking can be such a normal part of a lot of people's lives. And so, it can be harder to see how problematic it is and how actually unhealthy it is. And you know, just coincidentally, Health Canada has actually now come out with, they've changed their safe use guidelines for alcohol, and they actually don't even call it that anymore, because no amount of alcohol is safe to use, and their safe use guidelines are now called guidance on alcohol and health, and that not even one drink is not safe or healthy to consume based on the evidence of all kinds of things, including it increased risk of cancer and all kinds of other things. So, from a health perspective, now there's no amount of alcohol that's safe to consume, which is great, and I think accurate in terms of, you know, not making it so much a part of, you know, being part of a healthy lifestyle, because it really isn't so. But for me, to sort of answer your question, it started to impact my work. And even though I couldn't really see that—how problematic it was—I knew that I was struggling to really achieve the things in my work that I had, my goals. And for quite a few years, actually, I was not sort of on that path that I set out for myself in terms of getting promotions and—but I couldn't see that. It was the alcohol. And I started drinking more and sort of partying more. And at this point, I was living in Toronto and really becoming a part of people—you know, my friends started to become people who drank a lot instead of people who were my real friends. And your whole—my whole—your whole life starts to revolve around the drinking and the alcohol and that lifestyle instead of what your true values are, and instead of the things that are really important to you. And we call it cunning, baffling and powerful, because you can't actually see that this is happening. And there's so much denial for someone who starts to sort of become a heavy drinker or a problematic, drinking becomes problematic, that you don't actually see the reality of what's happening in your life, and others can see it. But again, it can be so justified and normalized and—“Work hard and play hard” was my mantra, right? And meanwhile, I'm developing into an alcoholic, and it's acceptable in the people that I was hanging out with. But what really turned for me was that I just, I couldn't show up for eight hours a day and get up in the morning and get to work and be productive. And so I ended up going on a medical leave from work to try to really, you know, take some time off to try to really get my life together. And I ended up going to rehab to do that, not thinking that I was ever going to quit drinking, but just to get the heat off and just kind of get some time away and take get another 30 days off work, because I'm like, Oh, if I go to rehab, then they'll really see that I, you know, deserve that; I'm justified in my being off on a medical leave, right? And so, I kind of had this crazy justification in my head, that this would help justify me being off work. And, actually, it was great. The first rehab I went to was fantastic for me, and it was exactly what I needed. And it started to connect me to something inside myself. And I didn't grow up with any spirituality or any anything like that. So it was, I really started to find my own sort of “conscious contact,” as we call it in recovery, and a connection to something, a power greater than myself in that first rehab center. And it wasn't, I didn't get connected to anything in particular through that rehab center, but I was, did start to get connected, but it just wasn't enough. I didn't have a practice or a community, and I stayed sober for five months, but then got put in a social situation back at work again, and I couldn't, didn't have the strength to say that I don't drink. And sort of social pressured into drinking again in another social situation. And as soon as I did, it was right back to it, and that was what I needed, to really see that, Oh my gosh, this is a real problem. And, yeah, I actually, you know, got back, was unemployable again, Kristin, and had to, actually, after six months, it went right back down. But I needed to see that, to really see that, Oh my gosh, this is not just me needing to be more disciplined, or, you know, be more effective in my life. It was like, I've got this medical condition. And in the second rehab—so then I called EAP again and went back to treatment another time, this time a different treatment center, one that was a bit more sort of structured and a bit more, I think, rigorous in its approach. And in that I had to go, we had to go to AA meetings every day. And in that I really started to connect with, you know, a fellowship and a community. And, you know, first started to be in, was in my first Salvation Army church, back in those days, and among others—and other places of connection and fellowship as well. But first got introduced to The Salvation Army and really started to connect to what is the ultimate solution for substance-use disorder and for addiction as we know it today.

Kristin Ostensen

I love that you brought in your experience coming to meet The Salvation Army for the first time, because I was hoping you could tell us a little bit about the spiritual side of your journey, because you did mention, of course, you weren't really raised in anything in particular, so how did that journey go? And, yeah, can you talk a little bit more about how you connected with the Army? 

Greg Kyllo

Yeah, so it was really unexpected. I had no idea that, you know, I guess the treatment for addiction is biopsychosocial, cultural, spiritual, and that spiritual component is really fundamental to the recovery process and journey, in terms of, you know, the basically evidence-based ways of treating substance-use disorder today—and there are other paths, and there are, you know, we don't sort of prescribe, you know, one way to treat things. There are different people can have different ways. But, you know, following a path that has a spiritual element to it does actually have the most evidence for long-term recovery outcomes and for success. So, yeah, and it's evidence-based practice, which is great. So, that certainly was my experience. And I was able to, through groups, all kinds of different groups and treatment we had to go to in the recovery program at the second treatment center that I went to, we had to go to an AA meeting every day in evenings, and there was all kinds of education and therapy and things that happened during the day. But one of the most helpful things was developing this community with others that were sharing that same lived experience, that same—so it was this peer support groups that happen in 12-step communities, and so I was able to attend those meetings and really, you know, be able to through the 12-step process, have a spiritual experience of my own.

Kristin Ostensen

Mm, hmm. And how did you connect more specifically with the Christian faith and with the Army in particular? 

Greg Kyllo

Yeah. So, it was funny, because when I was in Toronto, which is where I started my recovery journey, I ended up volunteering and then working at a treatment centre. I just really felt called to leave the business world and the business community and do something that was sort of a bit more purposeful and meaningful. And we talk a lot about hope, belonging, purpose and meaning at the corps, and that's, you know, a lot of sort of Indigenous perspectives actually align with that as well. And it's very much aligned with the values of the Army and all of those sort of really core principles of Christianity, for sure. And so we ended up working—the treatment centre I was working with partnered with a Salvation Army organization in downtown Toronto—which was The Good Shepherd—and then they also had a substance-use program for those that were having struggles with addiction. And I got to know people from the Army and a major, in particular, back then that I really admire—the incredible work they were doing for those that were really being left behind in in our society and when there was nowhere else to go, people from The Salvation Army were there in downtown Toronto, supporting and helping people get to the treatment program that I was working in on the front lines. And so I really saw the incredible, powerful work that the Army does and started to learn more about Salvationists and about the way of the Army and the corps. And they actually they developed some incredible supportive housing and transitional housing for folks at Harbour Light, and they had a temple there. And so we would work closely with them, and I would go to services there as well, and it was just really powerful to, you know—for me, I felt really connected to those that were doing the work in our community, that, of course, I have that now, that lived experience of personally now, because that was 18 years ago that I that I went to treatment, and I've been sober since, and so I was incredibly, you know, grateful for. You know, there was even, when I was struggling most, Kristen—I don't usually share this—but when I was struggling most before, it was between the two treatment centers actually, that I went to, and I knew I needed help, and I just had a glimpse of, you know, that help where we get to a point where we're like, OK—we reach out for help, and usually it's not there. Usually in our communities, if you reach out for help when you need it, often you'll get put on a wait list and there's no support. But The Salvation Army is often the one place where you can find help when you need it, and that was the case in downtown Toronto. I reached out for help. I tried to get into detox. It wasn't available, and they directed me to The Good Shepherd. And I checked into The Good Shepherd on Queen Street East in downtown Toronto one night when I was reaching out for help, and it was the only place that would, that was there for me back, and this was about 19 years ago now. And certainly, I was coming from a lot of privilege—you know, I had a home. Actually, I was employed still at that time, and so the people that have nothing and don't have families—you don't have support. The Salvation Army is there for them in our communities, you know, 365 days a year with that wonderful “soup, soap and salvation,” as I love to refer to, because it's sometimes those really core human things that just aren't available.

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why we still talk about “soup, soap and salvation.” It's a message that continues to resonate, and it's how lovely that you got to experience that in that moment of need. And of course, you're still very active and involved in the Army. You attend Heritage Park Temple. Can you talk a little bit about that involvement today? And, yeah, and what your corps life is like now?

Greg Kyllo

Yeah, I would love to. So, when I, you know, was fortunate enough to, you know, I feel like “be called”—I was given this opportunity to move back home to Winnipeg in 2000 and help build the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre. And it just so happened that it was being built just up the creek from Heritage Park Temple here in Saint James, in Toronto and it was, you know, through the community of developing, you know—we're sort of very connected in recovery. We're very connected to our community and being of service. And we do all kinds of things like go out and, you know, it's snowing, snowing like crazy here. And so, we're out shoveling the neighbours’ driveways. And we do fall and spring cleanups. And so, reached out to Heritage Park Temple, as they're really close to the community here at Bruce Oake, and formed a connection with them, sort of professionally. And through that, met some really incredible people. And actually, my wife had a connection with someone who's really connected with The Salvation Army at the Heritage Park Temple as well. And so, we have those linkages. We work with all community partners and other churches and, you know, spiritual connections—we're open to all paths for all people in terms of finding your spiritual connection. But to get to know The Salvation Army, the work that they do, and some of the incredible programs that they have here, it just naturally was such a great fit with the work that we're doing here in the treatment centre. So, I'm fortunate to get to work professionally with them, and then, you know, be able to go to service on Sundays, is just—you know, it's just bringing the personal and the professional together. It’s just such a treat. We just had a group of 14 guys complete our 16-week program here, and there'll be members of Heritage Park Temple out at the graduation ceremony. There was three or four members out celebrating the lives that have been saved through the program here, and us all supporting the community together. So, it's beautiful to be able to sort of live, work, play and pray all together in the community. I just made that up, but it just felt appropriate. [laughs] But that's my personal experience, for sure, and I certainly want to let anyone listening know that, yeah, everyone's got their own path, and we support everyone's individual journey for sure.

Kristin Ostensen

Of course, speaking of the Bruce Oake Recovery Center, you are the executive director. Can you tell us a little bit about that role and what you're doing these days?

Greg Kyllo

Well, this is, you know, to be honest, just is something I had never really dreamed of. And just being given this privilege to be able to come back home and to build something in our community that is so close to home, with me being 18 years and in recovery, and being able to create a space where anyone can come. There's no financial barrier, so no one's turned away for an inability to pay. Anyone, as long as you have a desire to turn your life around, can come and get world-class treatment in this long-term 16-week program. You come and live and build, really, a foundation for life right here in Winnipeg. It's a beautiful thing. And we've been open for over three years now. We're coming up to four years in the spring, and the success that we've been having in terms of people—you know, 57% of those that complete a program go on to get a year of recovery on their first try. And so, we say that, you know, recovery isn't just possible—it's probable. 

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, that's fantastic. It's really good numbers. And how does your personal experience with addiction and recovery, along with your faith as a Salvationist, impact and guide the work that you're doing?

Greg Kyllo

Having that personal, lived experience of having gone through the journey of recovery myself and, you know, still being active in the recovery community, you know—it really is a one day at a time program. And so, I'm actively, you know, connected to recovery community and supporting my own health and well-being and recovery and so that's really important, and that helps keep me connected to my community and my supports. And, you know, the God of my understanding really enables me to, I think, lead by sort of walking the talk. And, you know, we often say: people don't listen to what we say. They watch what we do. And so I'm sort of, sometimes, trying to do my best to lead by example and to support, sort of my recovery in an active way—not just talking about what I did 18 years ago, but what I do and how I live my life today, in service. And we talk about recovery, unity and service as the three sort of pillars of recovery. And I think certainly getting to be a part of community and work with others in an active way, both personally and professionally, is something that I think is so fulfilling and enriches my life today.

Kristin Ostensen

Absolutely, and having been on both sides and again, of course, you continue to live this every day. What do you wish more people knew or understood about addiction and recovery?

Greg Kyllo

It's a really good question. I think people don't understand how treatable it is and so often, I think people feel hopeless, both people that are struggling with addiction themselves might think that, Oh, it's really expensive to go to treatment, or, you know, you have to—you know, it's really hard to do. And it really isn't. You know, as long as you get to a place where you want to make a change in your life, a transformation in your own life as possible. And so just that little bit of willingness, if you just pick up the phone and call. And that can be for a family member as well. I mean, I think, you know, family members lose hope because of the heartbreaking nature of this illness and that people just keep returning to using drugs and alcohol. It's just so heartbreaking, but if people just know that they can make a phone call and that things can turn as easily as with one phone call and I think that little bit of willingness, and then, you know, whatever that is for that person there—everyone's got their moment where they can, you know, find that opening. And it's so hard—we don't have the answers. There's no cure in terms of, Oh, you just sort of take this pill, or you do this thing. It's, you know, finding your own way and your own path to whatever that might be for you is—yeah, I just wish more people knew that it really is probable now. If you're willing and able to take certain steps, really, a life transformation is possible.

Kristin Ostensen  

Thanks for that encouraging word. So I'm wondering, from both your personal and professional experience, what do you think the greatest challenges are in addressing alcohol addiction in our society today?

Greg Kyllo

Well, I think you know, I mentioned earlier about educating people about the harmful effects of alcohol and that now Health Canada has come out and said that no amount of drinks is safe and healthy. And now you'll see so many people that are living sort of alcohol-free, and these aren’t people that necessarily have a substance-use disorder or alcoholics, but are choosing to live in a healthy way. And I think it's being supported. There's “Dry January” now, and a lot of people are extending that into choosing to live without, you know, using alcohol, and it's incredibly healthy, and, you know, can really help people's mental health. There's so many benefits to not drinking. And I think the science is sort of coming out now and backing that up. And I think, despite the advertising and all the marketing around alcohol that's out there, still, I think people are really seeing the benefits of living substance-free and living alcohol-free. And we certainly, you know, don't want to be judgmental, but we certainly use a strength-based approach where it's like: How great do you feel, you know, when you're not hungover and when you're not living your life, kind of, having regrets about the things that you did, you know when you were drinking? And so, we really do see it as a really healthy lifestyle choice. And I think certainly for people who are, you know, Salvationists or living a certainly a certain way of life, I think it's a lot more accepted.

Kristin Ostensen

Yeah, that's very true. You know, the tide has turned in a big way. When I was doing research for this episode, I came across an article about Tom Holland, the fellow who is currently Spider-Man has started his own, you know, non-alcoholic beer. So, I was kind of joking that sobriety is kind of having a moment. And so, in this moment, as people are talking about it, what words of wisdom would you offer to people who are either thinking about the sobriety journey, or unsure about it, and how would you like to see the work that you do continue to inspire others?

Greg Kyllo  

Well, I think certainly reaching out for help and information is and can be powerful, if that's needed. But we often say to people: Just try not drinking for a month and see how that goes for you. And because we often need to have our own experience to really, you know—as much as we can listen to other people, it's having our own experience that is, I think, most needed to do what best serves us and our families and those that we love and that are counting on us. But often, if you try to not drink for 30 days and struggle with that, that can be an indication that there's more going on. And so, if you say, OK, I'm not going to drink for January, and then you end up drinking, that might be an indication that there might be an issue there. If you're not able to not drink for 30 days, and you're justifying it, it can be an early warning sign that that there could be a problem, so.

Kristin Ostensen

Well, thank you for that. Thanks so much for sharing your personal experience, your professional experience. It has been really fascinating to chat with you today, and just want to wish you well in all that you are doing today.

Greg Kyllo

Kristin, thank you for the work you're doing and, yeah, really appreciate getting to spend some time and share with you today.

Kristin Ostensen

Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Salvationist podcast. For more episodes of the podcast, including our last episode on alcohol and society, visit Salvationist.ca/podcast.