Fathers have an important role to play in the development of their children. And yet, there are very few parenting programs out there specifically for dads. It’s a gap that desperately needs to be filled, and that’s why the Salvation Army’s Bethany Hope Centre in Ottawa created the Dads Matter program.
On this episode of the podcast, we talk with Merlin, a father of five who’s found an invaluable support system through the program. But first, we sit down with co-ordinator Rachel Day, to learn more about why Dads Matter really matters.
Learn more about Dads Matter: https://bethanyhopecentre.org/fathering
Fathers have an important role to play in the development of their children. And yet, there are very few parenting programs out there specifically for dads. It’s a gap that desperately needs to be filled, and that’s why the Salvation Army’s Bethany Hope Centre in Ottawa created the Dads Matter program.
On this episode of the podcast, we talk with Merlin, a father of five who’s found an invaluable support system through the program. But first, we sit down with co-ordinator Rachel Day, to learn more about why Dads Matter really matters.
Learn more about Dads Matter: https://bethanyhopecentre.org/fathering
Kristin Ostensen
This is the Salvationist podcast. I’m Kristin Ostensen. Fathers have an important role to play in the development of their children. According to many studies, positive father involvement is associated with better self-esteem; higher academic achievement; fewer behavioural problems; and many other benefits.
And yet, there are very few parenting programs out there specifically for dads. It’s a gap that desperately needs to be filled, and that’s why the Salvation Army’s Bethany Hope Centre in Ottawa created the Dads Matter program.
On this episode of the podcast, we talk with Merlin, a father of five who’s found an invaluable support system through the program. But first, we sit down with co-ordinator Rachel Day, to learn more about why Dads Matter really matters.
Hi, Rachel, welcome to the Salvationist podcast. Thanks for joining us.
Rachel Day
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Kristin Ostensen
First off, can you just tell us a little bit about the Bethany Hope Centre?
Rachel Day
Yeah, so we're a resource centre for young parents, 29 and under, in the west end of Ottawa. There's many services that families can get here like playgroups, parenting programs, individual support, health clinic, food share—the list kind of goes on, but we have, it's kind of a one-stop shop service here.
Kristin Ostensen
And when did the centre start offering programming specifically for dads and why? What needs were you seeing that prompted this?
Rachel Day
So, in 2011, they started focusing more on dads-specific programming. And with that kind of came, in 2016, they were able to hire a part-time fathering worker and start a dads group. So yeah, so we started seeing a lot of dads coming out with the families. And also just with that growing research about the involvement of a father in their child's life, and what that looks like, kind of that unique role that they have, and looking around at the city and saying, Hey, there's not really too many groups for dads out there. What can we do here? And so that's kind of where the dads matter group began—a space for them in the evenings with dinner, and a discussion to talk about, you know, that dad-specific kind of role that they have in their child's life.
And I think having that title on our calendar that says “dads matter,” is saying, Hey, you matter, and come learn about that impact that you have on your child's life, and the impact that you have on them whether you're present or not. So, dads need to feel that value, and that respect, and that's the goal of that group, is to say, Hey, like, come feel safe here, and we respect you, and we also understand that you love your child just as much as mom does. And I think giving them that hope, when things feel difficult has been so important. You know, we hear when a child's born, so as a mom, but it's the same for a dad, like that father is born then as well.
Kristin Ostensen
What would you say are some of the key differences in a dads-oriented program versus, say, a general program or a mom-geared program?
Rachel Day
So I think just having that space for them. First, that's saying, Hey, this is a place just for dads. So we're not just talking about parenting, but also what it's like to be a man, and what it's like to understand even that different type of play that some dads will have, but also even that nurturing side, that I think even as a society, we're saying, like, dads want to do skin to skin—like, there are so many benefits with even just that, right. And so that's something that you can't really get when you're doing maybe a group with moms and dads, because there's lots of benefits with that kind of group as well. But if you have a space where it's saying, Yeah, I rough play with my child and saying, Hey, there's actually cool benefits with that. And also a place to say, Hey, in this time where we don't talk about maybe emotions—you know, back in the day, “boys don't cry,” that kind of thing—and saying, actually, it's really important that we embrace that, and feel safe with that, and pass that on through future generations that we all have emotions and that kind of thing.
Kristin Ostensen
The Dads Matter program meets on Wednesday nights at the centre, where they have a supper and a time for learning and discussion. Merlin has been attending for about a year now, and the experience has been life-changing.
So first off, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your family?
Merlin
Well, I am a 30-year-old father of five. Been engaged for six years. The youngest is three months, and then they go up two, four, seven and 11.
Kristin Ostensen
Oh, wow, that must keep you super busy.
Merlin
Definitely!
Kristin Ostensen
And when did you start going to the Dads Matter program at the Bethany Hope? How did you hear about it?
Merlin
It was approximately a year ago. I think I just I kept hearing about Bethany Hope as a whole from different people around me that had accessed different programs. I didn't actually hear about Dads until I got here, and then I think I was talking to one of the staff members and they mentioned that it was a program that existed. And right away it kind of rang a bell for me. Knowing from perspective that there's not a lot of dads groups out there, it kind of drew me in as something different, which is kind of why I wanted to check it out.
Kristin Ostensen
And can you talk about your journey with the program since you joined? How has Dads Matter made an impact on you? Maybe you can share some of your most meaningful or helpful experiences?
Merlin
Well, having dealt with homelessness and CAS and various other fights in the past, having the support of people who understood and knew about the programs, knew about the stress, and we're willing to sit and listen, and also share more techniques and different ways of doing things has, obviously, been very helpful. Because, I mean, with five kids, no two children are the same. So, you can know plenty about children and not really know what the next thing to expect is going to be with each child because they're so different, right? So, trying something with one child would work great, but it doesn't necessarily work with the other children. So, I've definitely picked up tips and different pointers, and it's also helped me grow as a person. And having been through the things that I've been through, I had a lot of self-doubt and things that go along with it. So, being a part of programs that are built around supporting dads who have been through or are going through the same struggles—like CAS society or court or various things—it helps internally, too; it helps emotionally; it helps you feel a little less insecure. That self-doubt slowly starts to fall away. And they have amazing programs even within Dads, where they teach different skills, and they teach you about different parts of child behaviour and growth that they don't teach about in school or really anywhere else. So, you know, having, I mean I learned, for example, that I actually knew a lot already. I was doubting things that I didn't need to doubt. And so that was really nice, being able to affirm that I have some of the knowledge and that I'm doing all right as a father. But also learning that there's more that I could do and there's more that I didn't know, was very helpful.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, absolutely. Especially the confidence thing, because coming into parenting, I mean, we don't know what we're in for, right?
Merlin
When I met my fiancée, she had two children already. So that statement rings very true because coming into a situation where two kids, I think, were seven and two-range, somewhere around there. And the challenges are very present. They’re used to different people. There's so much I could say. There are definitely challenges. And then when you have your first child, it's almost like a little piece of you goes into the child, you know, and you spend the rest of your time constantly worrying. Are you doing the right thing? Are they OK? Are they healthy? Are they eating enough? Are they sleeping enough? You catch yourself hanging over their crib and watching them at night, just to make sure they're breathing because, you know. And then, you know, child number two comes and you're just as excited, but at least the nerves aren't as bad and they’re kind of settled out. In my case, my third, our fifth child is actually just as nerve-wracking as the first because that's my first girl. And so, I'm still catching myself, I’m up a few times a night, running up the stairs to the nursery where my wife is sleeping right beside her. So she's fine, but I'll go running upstairs to go check on her anyways because, as a girl dad, it feels like a different kind of pressure.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, yeah, totally. It's a whole new ballgame every time. And of course, a lot of parenting programming is geared towards moms. I mean, even in my own experience, you know, there's Facebook groups, there's meet-up groups, and there just isn't the same amount of stuff for dads, not even close, right? So just based on your own experiences, why do you think it's so important to have specific dad-oriented programs?
Merlin
You know, I think there's still large stigmatism. We don't really talk about the things that are expected of dads, and of men as a whole, as a general whole. You know, we're expected to just kind of quietly carry certain loads and not think twice about it. And I mean, it gets to be a lot. When you feel like there's nowhere to turn, there's no support or nobody to talk to, it becomes overbearing. When we dealt with the three-and-a-half years of homelessness and CAS, I felt like I had no support at all because there were no programs or almost no programs to get into. And a lot of them either closed for COVID, or just weren’t accepting dads. And so, it became a bigger challenge dealing with the society, because not having programs to get into meant that I couldn't do what they were asking of me, and therefore had to fight longer and harder to get my access to my first child and we were doing. And, you know, people don't seem to realize as a general that this kind of pressure, it breaks dads. It makes them hurt inside in ways that we don't even know how to express because we're taught that we're not really supposed to express it. So, when people do finally ask us, Hey, are you OK? We don't even know how to talk about it because it's generally been shunted off. So I really think it's important to build upon Dads Matter and groups like it, and build more groups like it because it's important for dads to understand that they, too, struggle, and that it's important for them to feel as supported and as important in the child's life as the mom. A dad is expected to support the mom and the children, but if he can't feel OK himself, then it is not going to be easy. He's not really going to be able to support his wife and children. So, the importance of these groups is just as crucial for dads as it is for moms, because there are single dads out there. Or there are dads who stepped in to take care of kids that aren't theirs. And then they feel like everyone is judging, every eye is on them, every turn they make, they're looking over their shoulder because they wonder, Am I doing everything OK? Or is somebody going to call on me? Or something going to be judged for what I'm doing? And programs like Dads Matter at Bethany Hope help dads feel security that isn't their normal.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, no, that's very true. And I think the emotional issue which you've touched on is so huge, right? There can be these really rigid expectations. And if you don't feel like you fit into that, as a dad, what do you do?
Merlin
Very much so. I mean, I grew up with that whole saying: men don't cry. Men don't cry. Go to your room if you need to cry. I believe the opposite. I believe that it is important to deal with your emotions in whatever way is possible and healthy, as opposed to building them up and having them come out in a way that obviously would not be healthy for anybody. I encourage my kids that, if you're upset, it's important to use your words. But if you can't use them, rather than getting physical, rather than hitting, come to me. I'll give you a hug, I’ll help you grieve, I’ll help you sit down and think about what words you need to use. And, you know, if you need to cry, I’ll be that shoulder for you to cry on, because it's important to acknowledge the emotions and encourage them as a normal thing. I feel like it was so abnormalized, it was so wrong when I was growing up that now I do hide. I'll go hide in my room to cry. I shouldn't have to feel that way. But that's how things are. And I really think that we need to try to break that.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.
Merlin
How can we teach kids about healthy emotions if we don't express them ourselves?
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, exactly. And with these challenges that you've had, can you talk a little more specifically about some of the ways that Dads Matter has supported you? For example, you know, either with the emotional stuff or some of the practical stuff.
Merlin
So, for example, when I come on Wednesday mornings, or when I would come on Wednesday mornings with the children, there's a lot of staff here to help out, or when I come on Fridays for food share. So they'll actually grab the kids and bring them to go play with toys or keep them busy and distracted so that I can get done what I need to get done, which is very important. Because if I'm trying to, for example, grab food, and I'm trying to run after them, it's very hard to do, right. So it also gives a moment for the parent to breathe, which is so crucially important, it's not even funny. [laughs] I can't say how many times I, you know, come to playgroup, for example, and my kids go in two different directions, and I'm running back and forth. And then, for example, Rachel will come around the corner and kind of go, Oh, let’s go over here, go ahead and breathe. And I'm, you know, I'm good because I just need that couple of seconds to take a breath and know, OK. And Dads, I mean, Rachel and Dave are always there to listen. I can't stress the importance of that. When myself or one of the other dads come in, and we've had a hard day or a hard week, and, you know, it's all just kind of bottled up inside. And we don't, obviously, want to drop that on our spouses because they deal with enough pressure. We can come in and we can kind of unwind and talk about the things that are bothering us. And then they do their best to give us advice. And that is super important. Because it helps to encourage the parent, the emotion, the healthy expression. And by encouraging that within us, within the dads, we're able to instill and encourage that within our children. So it kind of carries over.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, exactly. You can't pour from an empty cup, you know? Yeah, I love that saying. Do you think there's enough support for dads out there, aside from the Bethany Hope Centre, and what would you like to see more of?
Merlin
I definitely don't think there's enough support out there for dads. I don't even think there's enough shared support, even with shared groups of moms and dads together, which I also believe should be encouraged because we need to learn to work together on certain things, and not all parents are able or know how. So, I think those are just as important. Back to the dads—I do believe groups like Dads Matter really are important and that there are too few of them. I don't know about the rest of Canada, but there's definitely too few of them in Ontario. And I mean, I see it every day. I hand out cards on the bus for Bethany Hope and pretty much anywhere I go, because I see young parents that are struggling, that look overwhelmed that look like they could just use that extra little bit of support. And I hand them a card and explain what it is and send them over here because I feel like it is so important. And I often actually take an extra moment to address the dads and be like, By the way, there's a little extra support here for dads. And I know that you've probably looked for this and aren’t seeing it in other places. But Bethany Hope really has structured around supporting dads and are trying to encourage these groups to become more popular. And I think that's very important.
Kristin Ostensen
Yeah, no, I agree. And of course, we've talked about some of the challenges and things about parenting. But I'm curious, what do you love most about being a father and love most about parenting?
Merlin
Those smiles and hugs. I can't get enough of the smiles and hugs. Being able to show my children better than what I had, more structure than what I had, and a kinder side of things is definitely very rewarding. But I mean, just waking up in the morning and seeing those smiles on their faces or, you know, playing games and they’re giggling—I can't get enough.
Kristin Ostensen
No, it's so true—those special moments, big and small, really make it all worth it. Well, thank you so much for your time today, for sharing, for your vulnerability. It's been so wonderful to chat with you and hear about your experiences. And I hope you have a wonderful Father's Day this month.
Merlin
Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Kristin Ostensen
Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Salvationist podcast. For more episodes, visit Salvationist.ca/Podcast.